You’re Going to Hate Sausage Forever (BCO Preface II.1-3)
Episode: 2
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- PCA BCO
- Guy Waters How Jesus Runs the Church
Transcript
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[MUSIC]
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Hello and welcome to “Polity Matters.”
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This is episode two of BYOBCO.
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My name is Ben Ratliff and I am joined by Scott Edberg and Jared Nelson.
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Today we are continuing the discussion that we began last week on Preface of the PCA Book of Church Order.
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That first section we discussed is called The King and Head of the Church.
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And we discussed and went through that it establishes the regulative principle of polity.
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You know, that truth that we are Presbyterian because our king commands that we be so.
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And it summed up well in the Title of Guy Waters book.
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It’s not how we run the church, but it’s how Jesus runs the church.
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And today we’re going to embark on our journey through the next part of the Preface, part
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two, called the preliminary principles.
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But before we do that we have a guest.
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Jared why don’t you introduce our ride along companion?
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Yes, so our other voice that you’re going to be hearing today is that of Steve Tipton.
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He was somebody that I mentioned actually last time as one of the people that I used
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to watch it seemed to know what he was actually doing polity wise.
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And he is used to be in our Presbyterian and Ascension was moderator there.
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He’s been in RPR which is review of Presbyterian records, has been even chairing that.
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And as even at one time been upfront at General Assembly as an assistant parliamentarian.
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So I thought that he could help us along with a little bit of this, but also thought maybe
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Steve you could just give us a brief introduction to you and when did you get interested in
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Presbyterian polity?
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Yeah, well, thanks guys for having me on.
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That was a very generous introduction by Jared.
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I wasn’t really sure I recognize myself there and some of that.
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I was raised Southern Baptist.
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I was not a Christian at the time.
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I mean, I was in a believer at the time, but you know, belong to a sort of Baptist church.
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And so I got to see kind of congregational polity and all of it, you know, expediency
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and able to do certain things quickly, but also from time to time saw some of the negative
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sides of that polity.
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I mean, really didn’t understand it at the time, but kind of looking back, seeing some
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of the things that can happen in congregationalism.
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When I met my wife, he grew up, Presbyterian, she grew up in the PTUSA.
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And so when we got married and we’re going to church with her, I was going to church,
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I could see a very different side of again, church polity, not knowing those terms or
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ways of understanding things.
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Came to an appreciation certainly for reform theology through that, but not so much on the
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polity side, just, you know, it’s kind of more of an advanced level than just the theology
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piece.
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But I felt called to ministry and we eventually moved from the PTUSA to the PCA while I was
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still doing my undergraduate work in California and then eventually went to RTS and Jackson.
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And I think it was just, you know, sometimes it’s the friends that you make.
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And so I got to know Guy Waters pretty well.
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We both, I think it was the same year, we started the same year there.
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Obviously he was teeping and I was a student, but just got to know him a little bit and
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really appreciated his insight into polity issues, to polity from, from Guy.
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He’s been a friend of mine ever since.
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Really I think it started in maybe the second year I was in tension, Jared, maybe at the
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same time we got there.
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There was a, we had a representative to go to RPR, review of Presbyterian Records who
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couldn’t go because of scheduling issues.
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And that individual was my, one of my ruling elders.
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And so he encouraged me to take his spot.
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It really was sort of baptism by fire, trying to figure out, you know, what was going on
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and what all these people were talking about.
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And I think maybe that was really what got me interested in the polity of the church and
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digging through and seeing kind of how the sausage is made.
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I guess it’s going to do one of two things.
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You’re going to hate sausage forever.
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Or that’s all you want is more sausage.
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So I’m one of the more sausage guys.
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I just, I really, really enjoyed it and have been back a number of times and just wanted
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to learn more about our BCO and how, how it worked.
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I’ve read quite a bit, not as extensively as some.
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But probably more than most perhaps in our, you know, polity, ecclesiology type things
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and just continued to enjoy that aspect of what it means to be a Presbyterian.
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I know the listeners can’t really get a sense for this without seeing us, but the, the aura
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at play with three RTS Jackson grads on the same screen is, is unbelievable.
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Well, if you’re following along, if you’ve pulled up the BCO and you’re able to look
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at the preface with us, you’ll see that in preface to just before the preliminary principles
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begin to get listed, there’s sort of what we’re calling a preamble.
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Since that’s where it starts, we’re going to start there too and just work our way through
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this document and we’ve, we have some thoughts for you as we discuss.
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So the beginning, the preamble goes like this.
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The Presbyterian Church in America in setting forth the form of government founded upon
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an agreeable to the word of God reiterates the following great principles which have
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governed the formation of the plan.
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And I was wondering, Jared, if you could start us off here, maybe explain a little bit about
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the source of these principles that are about to follow.
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Yeah, these preliminary principles are not universal in every single Presbyterian church
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that you’ll find even in America, but they did begin in America.
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They were fixed to the form of government in 1788.
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And eventually they get lost in the Southern Presbyterian Church for some reason.
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They no longer become part of their constitution and then the PCA discovered the McGinnicus
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and the Attic and then re-affixed them to the beginning.
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These were written when this was going to be a Presbyterian church in America.
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It’s not in the colonies anymore.
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They were coming into their own.
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They were revising even the Constitution in chapter 20 and 23, especially of the Westminster
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standards.
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And it’s at least kind of, I don’t know if it’s about legend or just one person at least
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had said this guy, Ashbell Green, that John Witherspoon was the guy that actually came
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up with him.
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He was on the committee and may have actually coined them all.
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And wrote these as kind of the background, the foundations of the entirety of what follows
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later.
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So I don’t know if you would really call them like the Bill of Rights to the BCO because
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they don’t quite function that way.
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You can’t really like get things overturned.
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I don’t think in the rest of the BCO if you appeal to them.
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It doesn’t quite work that way.
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Everything really should be seen in light of these and it gives us a basis for if we’re
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going to add or subtract to it.
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Do they fit with the preliminary principles or do they undermine them, which can also
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lead to some interesting questions later if we have parts of our BCO that may seem not
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to go with that.
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Do they actually align or do they not?
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Maybe we can talk a little bit more about that later.
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Scott, why are the principles needed?
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Well, I was thinking through that question and I started going down the rabbit hole with
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other constitutions.
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And so I don’t know if you know this, but you can buy the RPCNA book a church order for
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free on their website.
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I don’t know why they make you buy it, but you have to go through all of that.
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And so I was looking through other constitutions wondering just the how wide the application
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for using preliminary principles were within the reformed world.
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And I found not many denominations use them, at least how we use them.
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There’s no preliminary, some of the content is used elsewhere, like in the RPC, the RPCNA
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and the RPCNA.
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But there’s not many denominations even today that have a guiding principle set that
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we do.
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The importance for that is that they remind us as we are amending the constitution and
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following the Constitution, the foundation of the Constitution.
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And so you’ll hear throughout the assembly and throughout the various committees as they
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do their work appeals to the preliminary principles, the CCB will often say, we cannot
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pass this, the CCB is sometimes ignored.
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We cannot pass this because it relates PP1, preliminary print one.
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And so it’s a good framework for thinking about what holds together or what we seek to
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hold together our Constitution.
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But I maybe have a question why to the broader group, maybe even just Steve, how do denominations
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function without preliminary principles as it relates to their Constitution?
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Yeah, I don’t know how necessarily they function without it.
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I mean, imagine in the same way we would if we just took them out.
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I mean, you still have a BCO that has all the questions for all the things that you do.
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Not having it wouldn’t necessarily be in that sentiment.
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I mean, clearly their polity is based upon the principle that are in the preliminary
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principles, whether they believe it is or not, to some degree or other.
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But I do think that part of this is Presbyterian history.
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And there are many people who much better to get on and to talk about history, Presbyterian
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United States, but there are many different kind of streams and review lists that come
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out of whether it’s Scotland, Ireland, different times in Scotland.
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I would say that these preliminary principles having been, assuming that they were, by
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Witherspoon so early on, that they’re going to be more attached to kind of American Presbyterian
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ism.
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So for instance, like the ARP, it shouldn’t be surprising.
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The ARP wouldn’t have them because they are an associate, the Associate Presbyterian Church
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and the Reform Presbyterian Church that came over later on.
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And so they’re going to adopt a more Scottish form, whereas in some ways those preliminary
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principles were an attempt to, maybe do two things, right?
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To reach back into established Presbyterian principles, but also to have a, this could
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be misunderstood or showed like a uniquely American form.
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I mean, again, it’s not entirely unique.
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It’s entirely separate, but things like, you know, the division between the state power
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and the church power and how those things work and our principles are a little different
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than what our Scottish forefathers believed and argued for.
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And so I think in that sense, they were an opportunity to kind of draw a line in the
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stand.
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And again, that analogy can also be missed, but to draw a line somewhere and say, okay,
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these are the principles upon which American Presbyterian, this particular way of doing
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materialism is going to be established and followed.
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And if my memory serves some looking on the PCA historical site, I think they were really
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adopted by the OPC, but then somehow they dropped out of their VCO.
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And that may just be an editorial issue more than anything else.
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Even the PCU apps, they dropped out fairly early on, you know, long before liberalism
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had become a problem in the PCU apps.
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It wasn’t a liberal move to reject or whether you want to call it reject or just remove
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the preliminary principles.
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I think we can say it’s a mark of proper Presbyterianism to have them rather as a continuing church.
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We have seen the wisdom and the having those principles in our book of church order and
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seeking, maybe not always succeeding, but keen to build form our government on that
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foundation.
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Can you think of a time perhaps in the PCA’s history where a BCO amendment has been added
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to our constitution that violated one of these principles?
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No, no, no, I, but I do think that the principles are broad enough.
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And our foundational in nature so that in one sense, I think it would be very difficult
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for us to pass an overture that would directly contradict a preliminary principle.
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It would be really hard to do that.
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Now there have been times where phrases could be but to be in conflict with a preliminary
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principle.
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Usually I don’t have them enumerated in front of me and I don’t have them memorized either.
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But you know, the one that talks about the congregation electing officers and there have
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been some things that have been tried in the past that I don’t think were done maliciously
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to remove that principle, but just not well thought out so that the, an action that could
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be taken by a presbytery would in fact violate that principle.
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And so in my memory, those things going through overtures, they get either amended very easily
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or they just get defeated because or sent back to the presbytery or whatever, especially
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overtures that committee, there is a sincere desire to not violate this preliminary principle.
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Well, one other thing we probably should ask is why are we doing the preliminary principles?
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How is it significant?
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And I wonder if Steve would still have this.
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I remember telling you the story of having the question during one of my, I think it was
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during my licensure exam.
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They asked me what is the most important part of the BCO?
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And I said, well, I don’t know.
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And the guy answered the index.
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And I remember telling you that story and then you remember what your reply was, right?
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Probably something like that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
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Yeah, I mean, okay, indexes are really important.
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Actually, I never use my index because I have my BCO on my iPad and I just search for things,
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but maybe the search function now becomes the most important part.
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If we’re going to say that our quality is built upon called principles, and if it isn’t built
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upon biblical principles, then what’s the point of following it?
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Just to say it’s better or wiser or more convenient in some other way.
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If we believe that our quality is built upon biblical principles, then it would be helpful
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to have a place where we talk about what those principles are.
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And certainly, we are not exhausting those biblical principles in the preliminary principles,
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but it’s important to recognize what principles are.
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In one sense, the preliminary principles, I would say, sort of act like prolagomena in
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a theological system.
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You know, prolagomena is usually not most people’s favorite part of theology, but it’s incredibly
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important because it sets out the definitions of the terms that we’re going to be talking
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about.
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It sets out the direction, the limit of those terms.
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It provides the groan, particularly prolagomena, is where you talk about scripture as that
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principle of the theology itself.
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And what is the scope of your theology or in our case?
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What is the scope of your quality?
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So I would argue that the preliminary principles are the most important part of the BCO, that
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if you don’t understand them, if you’re not conversant in the ideas that they talk about,
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again, you don’t have to memorize them, but if you’re not conversant in those concepts,
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then ultimately, your polity becomes a function of just human wisdom.
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We understand from our Vice-Mr. Confession of Faith that there are circumstances of church
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government that are common to human society.
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And they’re guided by the light of nature, they’re guided by Christian prudence, and they’re
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always to be in conformity with the Word of God.
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But without preliminary principles, I think more and more of our polity, more and more
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common notions per se, are going to encroach upon our polity.
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And we’re not drawing it back consistently to our understanding of what scripture says
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and what scripture does.
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And these principles do that.
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They don’t just tie us back to scripture, but they tie us back to the confessions and
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interpretations of scripture.
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I mean, preliminary principle one, which I imagine we’ll be looking at in just a second,
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it’s very much kind of an amalgam, just the different places in the Confession, drawing
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them together and placing them in a room that reminding us of their importance for polity.
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I would certainly encourage people to study them, to think about them, and to understand
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their importance, their place, and to seek to, in some sense, interpret the BCO in light
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of them.
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So we have to be careful, BCO 17, 2, whatever that is, means what it says, right?
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It doesn’t mean what it says as interpreted through the lens of some other document or
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some other place in the BCO.
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It means what it means as it’s written there.
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But it is built upon a foundation that comes from the pulmonary principles.
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And so I don’t think they stand like a Bill of Rights or something that can, you know,
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change, alter what comes after it.
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And so we’re going to find in our study of the BCO that there’s a provision that violates,
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clearly violates a preliminary principle.
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There’s no way to interpret that in light of a preliminary principle because it’s an
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impression of it.
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It needs to be changed.
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It needs to be updated, altered, or removed, or whatever.
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I think that there’s a sense in which we can move beyond the way these two pieces are
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actually put together.
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So we’re going to put the preliminary principles on one hand within the actual provisions on
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the other.
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Well, we’re all eager to move along to the first of these principles.
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And since all of you are probably scrambling to find your BCO, 17, 2 is actually the definition
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of the doctrine of ordination.
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So you can save yourself some time.
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Here’s preliminary principle number one.
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God alone is Lord of the conscience and has left it free from any doctrines or commandments
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of men, A, which are in any respect contrary to the word of God, or B, which in regard
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to matters of faith and worship are not governed by the word of God.
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Therefore, the rights of private judgment and all matters that respect religion are
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universal and inalienable.
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No religious constitution should be supported by the civil power further than may be necessary
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for protection and security equal and common to all others.
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Steve, we’ve heard a lot from you, but I do want you to begin this one for us.
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What does it mean there that God alone is Lord of the conscience?
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Yeah.
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So, I mean, again, it’s establishing a principle that is, or I guess it’s not establishing
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a principle, it’s borrowing a principle from our Westerns, your confession of faith, 21,
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if I remember correctly, that makes reference to the idea that God alone is Lord of conscience
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and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men and uses very similar
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language as it follows.
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And the idea that the confession is speaking to discuss and to give words to and that our
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colonial principles have attached on to, the idea is that no one other than God, no one
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other than Christ ultimately is Lord of our conscience.
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And so a church or the state for that matter cannot create doctrines, they cannot create
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commandments for us to follow.
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If they are, if they are in any respect, contrary to the Word of God, then they are beyond what
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God has said.
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So, we cannot, as a church, we cannot require people to believe things other than what God
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has directed us and given us some doing his word.
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We can’t tell people to do things.
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We can’t require a duty of them, not also found in God’s Word.
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And certainly you think about faith and worship, right?
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Again, we cannot require someone to believe things that we don’t have recourse to the
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Bible and our ship is regulated, is governed by the Word of God, not by the doctrine and
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commandments.
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And so we talk about the idea of the right of private judgment is another important piece
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of this.
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And it is not denying the fact that God is Lord of the conscience, that there is no
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other Lord of how I am to understand whether it’s faith or practice and practice in a variety
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of ways, whether it’s worship in particular, or it’s polity or any other thing.
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There’s no other guide to faith and practice than is the Word of God.
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And that Word is the Lord’s Word and He is the one who rules and reigns and the hearts
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and the consciences of men.
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And so no one else can take that role of being the Lord of someone’s conscience.
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And any thoughts on that middle portion, especially when we get to the A and B about respecting
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God’s Word, the issue of matters of faith and worship, maybe you guys want to distinguish
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between those and walk us through.
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Well, I’ve done, I’ve just stopped myself from becoming a covenanter this week as I
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read Bannerman on this issue because he would have A, B and C on this.
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He would have that there are limits to the Christian conscience, liberty of conscience
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as relates to the Word of God as we’ve referenced here in faith and worship.
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But then he would also include the ordinance of civil authority.
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And so that the magistrate himself has some responsibility in the life of not only the
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church, but society itself with regards to what the church believes, but also practices.
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I think most poignantly it deals with, and at least in Bannerman, the idea of how the
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state itself legislates certain and criminalizes certain activities, whether they be heresy
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or blasphemy.
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That’s not really applicable to the American context.
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And so I think that’s part of the preliminary principle one for us is at the end there, it
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sidesteps the civil authority as how Bannerman would outline.
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But the first two points A and B are very historical to Presbyterianism.
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Bannerman says on the first A, the first limit then sets the right of conscience as the obligation
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to the law of God, the divine law.
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There cannot be a more dangerous tenant than that which under the plea of liberty of conscience,
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expressly or virtually denies this limitation.
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And what that’s getting at is that we do not have the liberty to do what is morally wrong.
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We hear perhaps in our own culture and day and age where it’s everyone appeals to liberty
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for everything.
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I’ve Christian liberty to do this, that or the other thing, but there is a limit and
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that limit is God’s law.
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God, as Steve said, is the Lord of the conscience.
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We have no liberty to disobey him and the law that he’s given to us.
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And then B, maybe there’s a limit to this, a limit to the limit, but also then the ecclesiastical
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authority that is over you and you as we’ll get to one of the other preliminary principles
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of the membership within the church.
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What does that look like?
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What do we submit to?
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Where are the limits perhaps of our relationship with our own congregations?
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A good example could perhaps be what do we allow within our congregation to be believed
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or even talked about?
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Maybe things like Paedo Communion or baptismal regeneration or federal vision.
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Do you have the liberty of conscience to believe those things within the context of this congregation
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and teach that?
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Well, maybe there’s a limit there.
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And so there’s a limiting factor.
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We don’t have unlimited freedom and liberty to believe whatever we want as it relates to
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the church and God.
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There are great limits on the church particularly, but we have no liberty to disobey the Lord,
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the Lord himself.
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Yeah, I think one thing that Bannerman talked about, which is also very helpful along that
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same line, is an idea that, and obviously he’s echoing language of the confession anyway,
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but it’s this idea that the Lord who is Lord of conscience is the same Lord who has established
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the civil magistrate and the church as an ecclesiastical power.
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And so he has ordained both the civil authority and the ecclesiastical authority.
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And even our confession talks about this idea of disobeying these lawful authorities in matters
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that are not faith and worship is under the guise of liberty is to sin against that liberty,
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to sin against that conscience.
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And so I think those are important points, especially in an American context where very
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much the spirit of individualism and I get to know what I want and nobody can tell me
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what I can’t do.
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And the civil magistrate, even as much as we might disagree with it, is still ordained
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by the Lord and the lawful injunctions of civil magistrates, we can’t in good conscience
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deny the right of the civil magistrate to enact laws.
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And as long as they’re not requiring us to sin, we can’t disobey, right, just because
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I don’t like them or because we don’t like people telling us what to do.
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And so in a similar way, obviously there are differences between civil power and ecclesiastical
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power where the church has authority to do the things that it does, obviously ministerial
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and declarative, a person cannot plead liberty of conscience to ignore or to deny the lawful
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ordinances of ecclesiastical authority.
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One thing I like about Bannerman in this section is that he asked the question of where is
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the limit?
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Where’s the line on the civil magistrate and our freedom of liberty?
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And he basically says, I cannot draw that line.
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I don’t know.
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I don’t know where it is.
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And he posed the question to the reader.
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Maybe you can figure out where that line is.
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But one thing I did like from the civil realm is when he was noting it, he says civil authority
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is not absolute or unlimited for there is a point wherein it’s exercise, it meets its
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rightful domain of conscience and the short the sword ought to be sheathed and to give
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way before claims which the conscience pleads.
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It’s on the other hand is not absolute or unlimited either for there is a point where
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the rights are met and bounded by the rights of the civil authority.
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And that’s how he concludes that section.
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And I guess that in some ways sums up what we’re talking about.
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Well, it could be helpful to just a little since we’ve been walking through this, that
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last sentence I think is important to see this as a fairly American approach to the relationship
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between the church and the state because Bannerman will talk about the spirituality of the church,
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but it looks a little bit different in an American context because a lot of this is
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a restatement of Westminster Confession 20, which is on the conscience.
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But that chapter is actually different in the American version when it talks about imposing
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of the civil or of censures by the church, the original version had at the very end that
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it’s enforced by the censures of the church and by the power of the civil magistrate.
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And that’s taken out in the American version.
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In fact, the early adoption act allowed people to take exception to that and to parts of
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23 that were in the civil magistrate that they disagreed with.
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They eventually rewrote them.
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But this statement at the end, no religious constitution should be supported by the civil
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power further than maybe necessary for protection and security equal and common to all others.
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Maybe it’d be something that a Combinator would not be comfortable with affirming and
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gives our polity a bit of a different flair an American hints to it.
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Yeah, I mean, there’s this kind of interesting, even connotations in the way that sentence
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is written because it seems to suggest not that there is a protection of security and
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equal and common to all Christian churches, but religious constitutions or you might
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say, you know, the religious bodies that create constitutions or something like that.
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And so it’s not even necessarily trying to suggest that this should be extended only
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to churches, only to totally not just reform churches or anything like that, but it seems
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to be that there ought to be a protection and security equal and common to all other
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religion supported by civil power, which it doesn’t quite say that, but it seems to
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be leaning pretty hard in that general direction.
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Very good.
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Here’s preliminary principle number two.
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In perfect consistency with the above principle, every Christian church or union or association
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of particular churches is entitled to declare the terms of admission into its communion
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and the qualifications of its ministers and members, as well as the whole system of its
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internal government, which Christ has appointed.
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In the exercise of this right, it may notwithstanding air and making the terms of communion, either
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to lacks or to narrow yet even in this case, it does not infringe upon the liberty or rights
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of others, but only makes an improper use of its own.
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Steve, I’m going to I’m going to pass to you again to get us going as we begin talking
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about this principle.
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It stands out to you here.
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What do you see as the starting place?
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Yeah.
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So, I mean, this is talking about the importance of unions, associations of particular churches,
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churches with a big C in that sense, to declare who can be a member, and particularly, I
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think even more than that, who can be its ministers, who can teach, exercise, the office
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of pastor, teacher, elder, deacon, et cetera.
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And one of the things that this is not suggesting, even though this has been argued this way
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from time to time, I don’t think this is suggesting that certainly not individual churches get
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to do that.
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I don’t even think it’s trying to suggest that individual presbyteries get to do that,
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but rather that this is something that the church, again, a big C, the denomination,
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the union, the association of all of those particular churches has to do or gets to do,
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you might say, is entitled to do, and that we have this right to as a denomination.
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I mean, I hate to use that because that word isn’t in this, but as a union of particular
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churches that we have the authority to declare those terms of admission.
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On the one hand, I would want to be careful that we don’t suggest that we can add terms
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of admission into communion as a member.
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We can’t add things that are not in scripture.
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Again, this is not denying what will be said later about the ministerial and declarative
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power of the church.
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So we cannot say you have to be a Republican to be a member of the PCA.
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Praise God, we can’t say that.
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We cannot say in order to be a minister, I mean, this is actually a pretty interesting
443
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:16,480
qualification that we might have to be fighting against sooner rather than later.
444
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,640
What happens if a VCO amendment is eventually adopted where you have to do a background
445
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,360
check and then someone decides, well, if you don’t have a clear background check, you
446
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:31,560
can’t be a minister, even if it was 20 years ago or whatever.
447
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,680
I’m just saying, that’s not a qualification to be a minister, and so we shouldn’t be adding
448
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:37,680
that.
449
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,160
But one of the things that it points out that is even if we did that, if we exercise this
450
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,880
right, we might err, it says in making the terms of community, either too lax or too
451
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,280
narrow.
452
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,680
But even if we did that, we’re not infringing upon the liberty or rights of others, we’re
453
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,000
only making it in proper use of our own.
454
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,960
And that’s because no one is forced, I mean, my children might disagree when they were
455
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,480
younger, but no one’s forced to be members of a PCA church.
456
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,600
No one is forced to be a minister of a PCA church.
457
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:20,760
If someone finds the way in which we have made the terms of community or too lax or too narrow,
458
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,560
they don’t have to belong to our church.
459
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,720
They can disassociate and go somewhere else.
460
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:33,080
And so I think there’s a lot that’s packed into this, but it’s certainly trying to help
461
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:45,720
us to understand who determines those terms of communion and how they are, they sort of
462
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,640
built her down into the particular church.
463
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,480
It’s an interesting point that we sort of set up two sides of it, right, that there’s
464
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,200
the one side is that the church has to establish these things.
465
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,880
But on the other side is that the people who choose to join are submitting to them, but
466
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,280
only in so far as they choose to continue submitting to them, they can depart at their
467
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,640
leisure, they’re voluntarily associated.
468
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:14,760
I remember sitting down with a man in the church that I served many years ago now and he looked
469
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,360
at me and he said, I just don’t like the way that the elders are running things and
470
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,640
that the elders are elected in this particular way and that this is the way things are.
471
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,880
And I just don’t know what to do about being in a part of this church and we just need
472
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:27,880
to change it.
473
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,680
And I said, well, that’s unfortunate.
474
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,080
And he said, what do you suppose that I should do if I’m just so unhappy with these things?
475
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,720
And he didn’t really like what I responded to him with because what I said was that he
476
00:34:35,720 --> 00:34:40,480
should leave and find a church that he likes because this is the way that we do things.
477
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,880
And he was only voluntarily associated with us.
478
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,440
And we weren’t infringing on any of his rights by being Presbyterian.
479
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,760
We were just infringing on his preferences, I suppose, as long as he wanted to remain
480
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:51,760
with us.
481
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:57,120
Scott, you talk about some of this in your notes that you’ve given us about how some
482
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,720
other traditions treat membership.
483
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:03,160
Maybe you have something to say here about setting terms for admission.
484
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,160
Yeah.
485
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,760
So with church membership and it came to faith in the mainline Dutch tradition and part of
486
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,160
your membership vows weren’t merely evangelical in nature.
487
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,120
They were reformed in nature.
488
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:22,600
And we had to, when I made my profession of faith, I swore to uphold the three forms
489
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,000
of unity as what I believe the scriptures teach.
490
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:33,120
And I always thought that I was so unique, especially moving into the PCA where in many
491
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,720
of our churches, there are Baptists, right?
492
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:40,680
If you uphold the three forms of unity, you’re not going to be a Baptist at my Dutch Reformed
493
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,880
Church.
494
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,400
But the PCA, at least historically, has been less stringent.
495
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,360
And I think that’s part of the voluntary communion as we were just talking.
496
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,040
It’s a little different.
497
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,880
Baptists are often permitted to join, but they are unable to hold off.
498
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,760
That’s where the rub hits for us.
499
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:06,000
And so I find it interesting how various traditions deal with this issue.
500
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,360
It’s not just you can believe whatever you want to be here.
501
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:15,880
There are guidelines that we all make most to before God in the presence of his people.
502
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,880
But it does remind me of a situation in my polity class in Jackson.
503
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,120
A guy waters head, I think a rolling y’all there come give us a lecture and we were talking
504
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:32,080
about church discipline and excommunication and all that.
505
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,880
And someone asked the question of what do you do with someone who’s in the middle of
506
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,240
process who just seeks to say, I’m done.
507
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:45,320
I don’t want it to be a part of this body anymore and I want out.
508
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,720
And I think the classes sentiment was, well, you continue process.
509
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:53,720
But the ruling elders argument was, no, you release them.
510
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:55,640
You release them from membership.
511
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,160
Because it’s voluntary.
512
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,520
And not only that, I think its principle is more than just maybe what we’re talking about
513
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,320
here was you can’t like civilly, the church can find lawsuits.
514
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,600
If they pursue someone who no longer wants to volunteer be with them.
515
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:16,320
And so I reminded of that that warning, you may want justice.
516
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,200
And in some circumstances and for a minister, it’s certainly perhaps a little different
517
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,480
than a church member.
518
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:28,600
But there is a voluntary nature that we must remind ourselves when we associate and those
519
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,200
who associate with us.
520
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,480
Well, there’s also the civil realm.
521
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,480
I think a preliminary principle number two also reminds us that voluntary association
522
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,440
applies to the civil government.
523
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,520
In some ways, this is also saying the government can’t tell us who our members are and are
524
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:46,560
not.
525
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:55,400
This is, it feels a very anti-establishmentarian that this voluntary association and that we
526
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,280
get to determine who our membership is.
527
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,640
And so the government also on the other end can’t come in and say, no, you have to have
528
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,560
this person still as a member in your church.
529
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,920
No, the church government gets to decide who his members are and who they are not.
530
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,160
Let’s move on to number three, which says our blessed savior for the edification of the
531
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:23,000
visible church, which is his body has appointed officers, not only to preach the gospel and
532
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,640
administer the sacraments, but also to exercise discipline for the preservation, both of truth
533
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:28,640
and duty.
534
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,600
It is incumbent upon these officers and upon the whole church and whose name they act to
535
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:39,760
censure or cast out the erroneous and scandalous observing in all cases the rules contained
536
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,680
in the word of God.
537
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,240
Steve, start us off again.
538
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:44,960
I just keep throwing to you.
539
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,400
No, it’s just because you’re here.
540
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,400
I’m not used to the other.
541
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,600
I’m not used to having extra people.
542
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,080
Talk us a little bit about here about the representative aspect of the government that
543
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,320
this principle is setting up for us.
544
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:58,320
Yeah.
545
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,360
Well, one of the things I was thinking about and I’ve often thought about with this is
546
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:11,080
a phrase, an idea that I’ve heard, you know, often that American civil government is based
547
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,040
upon Presbyterianism.
548
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:19,360
And I think that there are plenty of comparisons that could be made.
549
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,840
But one of the dangers of that idea is that we do have representative government in the
550
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:25,840
United States.
551
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,760
So I’m in Florida, the great free state of Florida.
552
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,120
I mean, we all elect our legislatures, but we elect them in the free state of Florida
553
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:41,160
down here and send them off to, whether it’s Tallahassee or Washington, depending upon,
554
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,200
you know, what office they’re holding.
555
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,440
And we want them to go to those places and represent, right?
556
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,160
They’re representing our in those places of civil government.
557
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:58,880
And one of the dangers in drawing a connection between the civil government is representative
558
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:04,120
and the way in which we also have representatives, right?
559
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,120
We have elders.
560
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,320
We have elders at session, elders that go to Presbyterian elders that go to the general
561
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,160
assembly is that it’s possible.
562
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:17,440
And I’ve certainly heard this sentiment various times in the trite that those elders are going
563
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,680
to represent, you know, the people that elders are elected to go to session to represent
564
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,400
the church.
565
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:30,120
And that is, you know, 180 degree difference from what the biblical idea of representation
566
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:37,640
is that elders, pastors and ruling elders are elected not to represent the people before
567
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:38,640
God.
568
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,320
I mean, we’re not pre-ceptual.
569
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:46,920
We are appointed to represent Christ to his church and say representative form of government,
570
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,720
but it’s the opposite type of representation that we typically see in American government
571
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:54,560
or that we do see in American government.
572
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,800
And so I think that’s an important point for us to understand and for people to understand,
573
00:40:58,800 --> 00:40:59,800
right?
574
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:06,360
Is this idea that officers are appointed, you know, ultimately by Christ, this gets into
575
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,160
a lot of the doctrine of ordination that we, you know, we much later in your podcast, of
576
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,000
course, to talk about those things.
577
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,480
But you know, it’s Christ who gifts individuals with their gifts.
578
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,920
It’s also Christ who gifts the church with those officers.
579
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,440
And so we have to, we have to recognize that.
580
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,800
But also there’s another statement in here that I think is interesting.
581
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,560
I think it’s the second sentence that has been coming upon those officers and upon the
582
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:36,440
whole church in whose name they act to censure cast out its netarot.
583
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,640
Now, we could talk more about the other pieces, but I’m just thinking about that first phrase,
584
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:46,280
the officers and upon the whole church and whose name they act, that it can all those
585
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:52,400
sound as if the permanent principle is suggesting that by acting in the name of the church,
586
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,960
they are in fact representing the church.
587
00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:02,520
It almost sounds a little fuzzy there, but I was looking at, I was doing my daily devotional
588
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:08,120
in water’s book, How Jesus Runs the Church, and you know, came across.
589
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:14,240
He makes this reference to a statement that Thomas Peck makes.
590
00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:20,720
And he says, you know, the power of the church resides in her is exercise by the officers.
591
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:27,000
So there’s this connection between the power that the church has resides in the whole church.
592
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,440
It’s not the power of the church doesn’t reside nearly in officers.
593
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,960
It resides in the whole church, but it’s exercise is carried out by the officers who
594
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,280
were elected.
595
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:45,560
And so again, that that power that Christ has given is not to merely individual to the
596
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,640
whole church.
597
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,880
And then it is exercise by those officers.
598
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,400
And in one sense, we this sentence could be written a different way, right?
599
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,440
It is incumbent upon those officers and upon, you know, who act in Christ’s name.
600
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,560
It could say that.
601
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:10,600
But it also reminds us that that power that officers have is not given to them directly.
602
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:16,560
It is given to them indirectly through the election of the congregation.
603
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,600
They are ordained.
604
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,480
And so even though they’re gifted by Christ, no man can stand up and oh, I’ve had 20 people
605
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:24,640
try to do this, right?
606
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,160
Stand up and say, I’m gifted by Christ to be a teacher.
607
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,640
You just need to make me a teacher.
608
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,040
And that’s not how the church works.
609
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,640
You may be gifted and we may test and try those gifts.
610
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:41,960
But at the end of the day, those who will teach particularly as officers that they have
611
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:48,320
to have the the approbation of the whole of the body, which they serve.
612
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:53,000
And again, that’s another preliminary principle as well that we’re pulling into.
613
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,640
But that’s kind of the nature of principles is that they all they all kind of weave together
614
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,160
back and forth amongst them.
615
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,240
So I thought that was an important point just to bring out both the representative idea,
616
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:09,920
but also the way in which that power flows from Christ to to the officers in the church.
617
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:16,760
Jared help walk us through this idea of officers and what they’ve been appointed to do.
618
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaking about the three marks.
619
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:24,760
To piggyback on what Steve was saying, this seems to be not only a preliminary principle,
620
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,520
but a charge and a challenge to the officers.
621
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,600
When you read through this, you realize the three marks of the church are coming out here
622
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,040
in preaching sacraments and church discipline.
623
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,000
And these are falling on the officers that you are to maintain these things within the
624
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,000
church.
625
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,360
This is a charge and a challenge.
626
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,360
It’s a grave responsibility to the elders.
627
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,200
And they should be very serious about what they’re doing.
628
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,120
Some people, I think, approach being an officer in the church as you get this title or this.
629
00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:01,760
It’s kind of like just an honor or it’s something that you just towed around.
630
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,560
But no, it’s it’s a grave responsibility.
631
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,040
And I think preliminary principle three reminds us of that.
632
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:13,680
How do we protect the offices of elder the office of elder as it relates to the temptation
633
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,680
of pleasing constituencies?
634
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:23,240
I think that’s a common thing that our churches experience representing these people to this
635
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,840
session and we got to make sure we keep them happy.
636
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:36,000
How do we as pastors help our sessions to think differently than the civil realm as it
637
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,320
relates to representative leadership?
638
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,240
Yeah, I don’t know necessarily how to do that.
639
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:50,400
As you were speaking, I was thinking of an example in the church I served up in Pennsylvania
640
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:59,880
where a one of the members of our session took a pretty unpopular opinion on a matter.
641
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:05,640
And I remember having a couple of conversations with him about that.
642
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:14,960
And one level, my thought was probably not incorrectly that there would be certain people
643
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:20,720
in a congregation that they knew the position that he took that they might be very upset
644
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:21,720
with him.
645
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:26,640
And it might even be the kind of thing that might cost him an election coming up in a
646
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,640
few years or whatever.
647
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:36,720
And to his credit, he said, "That particular meeting at that particular decision, I had
648
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:39,720
to do, I had to follow my own conscience.
649
00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:44,680
I had to do what I thought Christ, for her to need to do in that particular situation.
650
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,040
I couldn’t make that decision on the basis of whether or not the people back at Hillcrest
651
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,360
would be happy or not."
652
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,520
And I still wasn’t happy with the decision he made.
653
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,160
But I greatly appreciated the sentiment and many things in my life.
654
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,960
I was greatly edified by his wisdom in that.
655
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:10,520
And so that is an answer to your question as far as how do we inculcate that into elders
656
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:18,560
beyond maybe telling those stories, reminding people of the importance of that, pointing
657
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:24,920
people back to the fact that at the end, these are biblical concepts.
658
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:31,760
And the last day, I’m going to have to stand up, or maybe kneel, and give an account for
659
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:39,720
not just how I shepherd Christ’s people in my particular church, but also for the ways
660
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:46,760
in which I behaved and acted and voted in the Presbyterian General Assembly, committees,
661
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:47,840
et cetera.
662
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:53,440
And Jesus is not going to say, "Well, okay, well, the church, you were trying to please
663
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:54,440
the church.
664
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Okay, he’s not going to care.
665
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:02,560
He’s going to care about whether I was following his word and his law and his commandment."
666
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:11,840
And so a lot of this is just trying to remind people of the genuine nature of that representation
667
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,200
that we go as his ministers.
668
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:21,480
We minister in his name, not in the name of the particular churches where we serve, even
669
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though we announce ourselves at the assembly, you know, hands, deep tips and from Gulf Coast
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Presbyterian.
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Well, I think that’s a good place for us to stop.
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Steve, we are glad that you joined us.
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We hope you’ll come back and join us again sometime soon, as Alexander Campbell would
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say, this podcast is over.
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If you’re interested in learning more about anything we spoke about, check out the show
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notes in your podcast player or at politymatters.org.
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If you’ve enjoyed the show, consider following us on Twitter and Facebook at politymatters
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and subscribe in your podcast app of choice.
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Scott Edberg is a senior minister of Providence, PCA in Troy, Illinois, and you can find him
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on Twitter at S. Edberg.
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If you’re looking for Jared, he’s the pastor of New Life Presbyterian Church of Hopewell
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Township, and he’s on Twitter at Brother Nelson.
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He’s also an editor over at Presbyterian Polyte and you can find him writing around the internet
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from time to time, so be on the lookout.
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I serve as the associate pastor at Covenant Presbyterian Church in Cleveland, Mississippi.
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I’m on Twitter at underscore Ben Ratliff and on sermon audio under Benjamin Ratliff.
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Say goodbye, gentlemen.
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Say goodbye, gentlemen.
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[Music]
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I love that you guys don’t know what to do when I say that at the end.
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I think it’s wonderful.
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Thank you.
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